Your gun may be the opposite or show no preference at all. I'd guess that almost any gun is going to feed better with round nose, but there could be exceptions out there. SIG Elite .38 Special Ammo $17.99 cabelas.com. However, the wadcutter can also do things that they cant. That means you can shoot them accurately out of small revolvers, and you wont hate your hand when youre done, even if you have a full practice session with them. A forum community dedicated to Glock firearm owners and enthusiasts. bac1023 Registered Joined Sep 26, 2004 We hasten to note thiswas a different era, and policy violations of this type were handled much differently than they would be todaythis is not a recommended practice for todays officers, who serve in a much different legal environment. I suspect they started slow and just get faster and faster and faster LOL,,,, bill i give,,, SWC will slice a nicer hole,, and going faster will definitely open things up,,,i haven't done any bullseye stuff for a long time. They also think rapid fire is 5 rounds in 10 seconds. Your Industry Needs YOUR Expert Voice In my own personal experience in training. Although the wadcutter bullet does a slightly better job at punching clean holes in paper, they do not feed well in semi-auto and lever-action firearms. For range use, inexpensive ammo is just fine. The SWC bullet provides enough bullet nose to permit smooth feeding from magazine to chamber, while the flat meplat and sharp-edged ogive punch the clean hole. Why am I not carrying this wonder-round? I think that the sharper the shoulder if the media requires cutting and tearing to get through.. the flatter nose will make more permanent cavity and penetrate more straight through to the possibly intended area. The 45 Colt just grouped tighter and seemed to be more accurate. No substitutions or transfers to a third party are allowed. (360) to .350 at the tip then size to .359and lube in a Lyman lube /sizer. I heard the G2 R.I.P. A 6-inch .38 revolver might be entirely suitable for a home defense gun. This was not idle chatter or war stories. Huge sigh. mould. Winners must respond within 30 days of receiving notification or an alternate winner will be selected. Sounds like Ive created a monster! There is plenty of field experience behind why most bear loads use flat nosed, cast bullets: they penetrate, break bones, and disable beasts even during a charge. Target shooters like wadcutter loads for their accuracy, light recoil and moderate cost. SWC. (I) Giveaway ends March 31, 2023. They speed load fine and also have a flat meplat. About 14 years later, the Peters Cartridge Company was the first to bring out factory loaded wadcutter ammunition. But those details are (IMHO) bullet-nerd stuff (thanks for the term Mike Wood). Come join the discussion about optics, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, troubleshooting, accessories, classifieds, and more! "We don't let them have ideas. Plus, these modern wonder bullets can only be made on an industrial scale, by a major manufacturer. Really thoughtful assessment of ammunition choices and the wadcutter. The .45 ACP cartridge in the Model 1911A1 pistol is a common example. This is sold in 50-round boxes with a VHP "versatile hollow point" advertised. It wont go very deep thoughabout 8 to 9 inches in bare, 10% calibrated gelatin. The massive nose provides a large surface area for producing large wound channels, resulting in rapid incapacitation, and the heavy bullet provides excellent penetration. Thank you Sir! I shot my lowest Q-score ever: an 89. Thanks for adding it to the conversation. Glad you mentioned carrying a round with a more forgiving ogive for emergency reloads, wadcutters (especially the ones seated flush with case mouth) can be tricky to reload under pressure. Im humbled, and pleased youre getting so much out of our efforts. Do not expect all SWC ammo to feed however. In police work, thats called a clue. I made a die (with an included ejector punch) to slighly taper the nose of the as cast wadcutters . I will keep on keeping on, and having fun! All entries must be received by giveaway end date. But that Buffalo Bore .38 special hard cast 150gr wadcutter definitely worked well when placed properly. The semi-wadcutter bullet was designed to have the same sharp shoulder as the wadcutter bullet, while adding more weight. Dropping 200 fps muzzle velocity from one gun to another with a wadcutter is not ideal, but still likely makes for an effective round. The SWC design offers better external ballistics than the wadcutter, as its conical nose produces less drag than the flat cylinder. The full wadcutter (WC) and the semi-wadcutter (SWC) are the two basic types that branch into a number of derivatives, such as the hollow base (HBWC) wadcutter, double-ended wadcutter (DEWC), hollow point semi-wadcutter (HPSWC) and bevel base wadcutter (BBWC). Lieutenant Colonel (Ret.) The Chicago Load -a.k.a.+P 158 grain Lead Semi-Wad Cutter Hollow Points. Trying to learn about all my option with my first revolver. I usually shot 97-100 with my duty autos. Im enjoying shooting my stash of wadcutters in my S&W 686, snubbie Model 10 and Rossi 92 .357 carbine. You can imagine the looks I got when I was purchasing my first box of wadcutters, to be used for self defense, no less. I have a Ruger LCR 327 for myself and possibly my wife. . 148-grain HBWC bullet. Everything that needs to be learned by an inexperienced shooter can be learned by shooting wadcutters, and they will be more likely to shoot lots of them than the more unpleasant ones. The original .45 Colt bullet profile is known as a truncated cone or round nosed flat point (RNFP). Your targets tell the taleyoure very accurate with that combo, and have nothing to apologize about to the square gun brigade! These 230-grain projectiles are then loaded to an average chamber pressure of about 21,000 psi, at a nominal muzzle velocity of between 800 and 900 fps. Very helpful. A wadcutter is a cylindrical bullet with a flat, square nose. For quick reloads you want something that glides into the chamber a lot easier than a wadcutter. the point is , put the shot where it counts , and Im aware that that isnt always easy , but practice and control makes all the difference in the world. It's just that most RN (FMJ with open bases, or plated, or lead) are usually the least expensive and therefore usually of lesser consistency. But since I generally find ammo I like I dont change very often anyhow. [4] These designs (C) use a wider front, and convex sides on the "cone" in front. Jacketed bullets or lead? Today I often carry a Smith Bodyguard in 38 w some critical duty ammo w one speed load when Im out and about. Paul Harrell of YouTube fame has conducted extensive tests of various calibers vs his meat test, especially noting penetration. A raccoon might be a pretty meaningful test medium They are tough critters. But it works for me and its reversible and better than trying to use Kentucky windage or simply trying to remember in an emergency situation. In my 3 SP101, it is only about an inch low at about 7 yards. The leading source for targeted, industry-specific news briefs. It was earth-shattering in 1898, when invented, but even before WWII we knew better. (III) Giveaway winner(s) chosen by random drawing. It cuts a clean, round bullet hole on paper, easy to score. If you got a good hit, maybe the bullet just acted like FMJ and slipped through. Four .38 Specials pose for comparison; (l.-r.) jacketed hollow point, lead round nose, lead semi-wadcutter and full wadcutter. Unlike a conical bullet, the entire length of a wadcutter projectile engages with the rifling. 158-gr. It shoots well to POA, but I will now load up some wadcutters and give it a try. Giveaway prizes may have evidence of being test fired or exhibit minor handling marks. Logistics. Theres another type of wadcutter projectile, the semi-wadcutter. Where a rounded tip would slide through a target, the flat tip ("meplat") punches a big hole. Frangible. I have carried several different weapons and used all the latest and greatest ammunition combinations over the years. If you're unsure what you need, check out our guide on How to Buy Ammo and grab a box today! A semiwadcutter (SWC) or flat-nose is a type of all-purpose bullet commonly used in revolvers. A bullet that looks like an overpenetrator in gelatin might turn out to be just fine in the real world, where it has to defeat a non-homogenous, clothed target. This makes it more versatile than firing a full wadcutter, making it a more useful general purpose bullet. Whats not to like about that. Giveaway prizes may have evidence of being test fired or exhibit minor handling marks. Accuracy. was alleged to be that his crew came from the range and thats all they had with them. thanks. . Is this a main gun or a backup? You can have jacketed hollow points, all-lead or lead hollow points. Now, around our property I carry either Buffalo Bore or Underwood .38 special 150gr hard cast wadcutters. Certainly there are many folks out there who are not gun people, but who feel the need to have a gun for self-protection. Both? lead bullets also take less powder to get to a specified velocity. The wad cutter or semi-wad cutter cut a cleaner hole which is easier to see and score. Contest void where prohibited by law. They take many different forms depending on the manufacturer, but they basically look like a short cylinder with a smaller cylinder sitting on top, which can be angled inward. In my experience, what you have stated here is spot on! How can a solid slug hope to compare to the performance of a modern, jacketed hollowpoint? What a great community of shooters we have here. The low velocity of these rounds significantly reduces their recoil. How about loading with wadcutters, and throwing a speed strip of the Hornady CDs in your pocket? You can make excuses or you can make ready. Sign up here to find out first about new shooting tips and articles, Federal Gold Medal Match 148 grain full wadcutters, Revolver Calibers Rundown on Wheelgun Rounds, Hornady Critical Defense .38 Special +P 110gr FTX Review. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. From my .38spl experience, the hollow base wadcutter bullet easily gave excellent accuracy, no doubt about it. Lead Round Nose. pressure in the gun, now relegated to fishing-vest carry. At 1/8 deeper, 16,100 psi. The ammo issued that day was PMC 158gr +P FMJ. SWC $29.99 brownells.com. I have gotten much older these days, and I can tell you that I am very comfortable using good quality wadcutter ammo for the carry load in my revolvers, especially in my snub nosed ones and particularly my lightweight ones. Thanks for pointing that out. A medium-sized, Southern California police agencys experience is instructive, here. The original load, a lead round-nose 158-grain bullet, was marginal as a stopper. "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.". Second, i chrono'ed some loads of clays today for idpa and was getting between and average of like 740s but got one out of 10 at 698 and one at 804fps. step. The low velocity of these rounds significantly reduces their recoil. I just want the inexperienced reader to understand that equipment should never be used as a crutch to make up for poor safety habits. After 18 years in police work, I trust my life on a Smith 442 loaded with 158gr Semi-wadcutters for my everyday carry gun, and 158gr lead round nose in my Comp I speedloaders. There are some loads that feature weights less than full but not all the way to light. It doesnt mean that I wont expand or decrease that bubble depending on circumstances, but its my rule of thumb distance. The concave sides reduce the bullet weight, and thus the recoil, while keeping the overall length of the bullet long enough to feed reliably in a semi-automatic pistol such as the M1911 commonly found in bullseye competitions. But for Every Day Carry it would be bulky. Himmelwrights 1916 Pistol and Revolver Shooting. For most bullets its more a matter of consistency and construction, rather than simple RN vs SWC designs. My biggest problem w a 380 is its not very powerful and its a semi auto instead of a revolver. Once again, we need to consider the unique circumstances of the situation. Nix, that load sounds excellent to me. (II) Limit one entry per household. If you want less recoil, youll have to choose between penetration or expansion, since you cant have both. The wadcutter is likely the first bullet conceived exclusively for Bullseye target competition, the impetus being the sharp-edged holes it leaves in paper. In contrast, the wadcutter easily goes deep enough to pass muster. I use RNL in my speedloaders, and keep mulling over the idea of grinding the spoon load flat onto them. David, the .327 Federal Magnum is indeed a little harsh, particularly in a lightweight like the LCR. Thanks for all the info! All their graphs, charts, tables, and slide rules told them that the .357 Magnum was the King of stopping power, so why would anybody choose something less? Wheel Gun Judy, When I got home I started digging through storage shelves for long-forgotten stashes. They are probably closer to 158 .38 Special +P velocities, i.e. The flat shape of the nose is the primary feature of the wadcutter. This was originally the St. Louis PD load (which explains the Winchester product code for itX38SPD), but it was later adopted by Chicago PD, the FBI, and many others, so its known by a variety of names. As mentioned above, round nose is fine for range purposes. I do both, LRN in 230gr and LSWC in 200gr no problems, my colt gov likes the 230's and my colt commander likes the 200's very well. Box 1926, Escondido, CA 92033. That has also been my experience. Primary law enforcement service cartridge from 1920s to 1990s. First mention of Buffalo Bore Ive seen (admittedly been scanning/scrolling) yet NO mention far as I can tell of Buffalo Bores 150-gr hardcast wadcutter loads. Your email address will not be published. I dont know why that didnt occur to me to do that purposefully. For decades, Hunters have appreciated the terminal performance of hard cast bullets with wide meplats. My LCR is the .357 magnum version and I recently downgraded my carry load to Underwoods 158gr +P LSWC rounds as UWs 125 gr +P JHP were just too much for me. Though full wadcutter bullets are often unreliable in semi-automatic pistols, semi-wadcutter bullets usually work much better. revolver in the authors collection that does not produce the velocities that it should. My LGS/Indoor gun range started selling boxes of S&B wadcutters a few months back. Why would we let them have guns?" Bullseye shooters also use semi-wadcutters in semi-automatic pistols. Get the 76th edition of the World's Greatest Gun Book. (II) Limit one entry per household. It will penetrate deep and cut a large round hole. In fact, several credible sources have told me that the really switched on officers in many Southern California agencies would load their duty guns with 148 grain wadcutters in lieu of the issued, 158 grain round nose lead, because they were more effective at stopping bad guys. How resistant to recoil are you? Haha, thanks for the encouragement to others to support us! CONS : Slow bullet velocity. Though the wadcutter is not extremely rare, it is still a relatively specialized bullet type that is only utilized in a few different cartridges. Required fields are marked *. Mike (nMW), I wonder if the HST didnt open up at all before it exited? As far as a go 2 house/nightstand weapon my 4 inch 7 shot 357 magnum fits the bill. However, I bet the mid-range swaged wad cutter would fail the meat test. Do you mind posting your loads? The three projectiles penetrated 15.0, 16.0 and 16.5 inches with minimal expansion (.405, .401, and .386, respectively), easily besting a host of 90, 110, 125 and 130 grain projectiles that were fired alongside it, which penetrated around 9 inches, on average; 4. Even taking into account the below average performance of the wadcutter in hunting and self-defense situations, it is still a pretty useful bullet for target shooting and training new shooters. I admit it, Im a bullet nerd. Never underestimate shot placement no matter how big, bad and tough you are, and keep in mind that your open carry weapon could be taken and used against you. This assured deeper penetration while cutting a good wound channel for blood loss. RN bullets load better in a revolver, than SWC's. Even including +P loads, it is really easy to argue that wadcutters had the best performance out of all the Lucky Gunner .38 Special test results (especially for someone who carries a 3 revolver). However, when a situation is not ideal (as most of them are not), they have a better chance of being at least reasonably effective. but the way i shoot, i don't think it'll help me out . Box 1926, Escondido, CA 92033. In my experience, accuracy is about the same. This makes the rounds more accurate, which is desirable for precision shooting. Mike (nMW), Thats an interesting observation on painting sights, Mike. Get the latest news and reviews from Gundigest.com. 38 Spl Semi wadcutter or also known as Keith bullet. Some people do get nice groups like that when they shoot fast. :biglaugh: I am talking about a different type of competition. Get the bullet to the heart, to the lungs, or into the brain (through the face, generally) and you will generally win another day on planet Earth. Deployed military should use stateside address. My dept has used them for yrs, up until june of this year when we switched over to the glock 19 and now keep the smith and wesson 38s in storage. At this point, I am way more likely to be carrying a second gun than a reload, and even that is pretty rare. Youve given great advice and information. Or just buy what's cheapest ? As we know, misses are a liability as well as ineffective! Contest open to U.S. residents only. Other Considerations. Im probably the last person to notice, but .22 rimfire ammunition has become awfully expensive, assuming you can find it at all. Display as a link instead, Sure, some .357 Magnum loads have developed a pretty fierce reputation as manstoppers over the years, but in the quest to choose the best numbers from a table or spreadsheet, the view of the big picture was lost. Also, I recently watched the Paul Harrel video on why he doesnt like Hyper (boutique and defense-specific) ammo. So.wadcutters ended up in my revolvers. They were so easy to shoot. I tend to load LSWC because they seem to shoot a little tighter. The lead semi wadcutter bullet is that same cylinder, but it has a tapered nose with a flat point. I do think the RN bullets are 100 percent more reliable in 100 percent of guns than the SWC bullets. It just doesnt perform well in barrier testing. May 27, 2005. dougk, Talking pistol cartridges only here; It is generally established that bullets with a meplat, or flat, on the nose will create a larger wound channel, create more tissue damage, dump more energy, and create more "shock" than their round nosed counterparts. This also makes for feeding problems when used in semi-automatic pistols (with the exception of the Smith & Wesson Model 52). Lets all remember that theyre the same crowd who told us the 9mm was anemic and unacceptable, before they grew their beards and started wearing multicam. I still use a lot of the 185gr Missouri Bullet "Button Bullet" as my tack driver load. Classic 38 special lead ammunition will do the job if I do my part as long as I understand my limits and the limits of my equipment. Tell ya what, Greyson. Contest open to U.S. residents only. I found it was harder to qualify with the Chiefs Special S&W Model 36 with the +Ps. at. Plus, we also have jacketed hollow point for self-defense. It can reach the desired 12 inches of penetration in bare gelatin without difficulty, even when fired from a snubby. M36. The .38 Special wadcutter has an enviable record of accuracy in the most demanding revolver shooting disciplines (such as bullseye and PPC), and its mild manners allow a shooter to juice the greatest level of practical accuracy out of their gun, since the modest recoil doesnt interfere with getting hits. More reliable in 100 percent more reliable in 100 percent of guns than the cylinder! Our property i carry either Buffalo Bore.38 special 150gr hard cast 150gr wadcutter definitely worked well when properly! We need to consider the unique circumstances of the World semi wadcutter vs round nose greatest gun.... Harsh, particularly in a revolver gun may be the opposite or show no at... And greatest ammunition combinations over the years wadcutter, making it a useful. Accuracy is about the same when placed properly a conical bullet, was as! And seemed to be that his crew came from the range and thats all had. Much out of our efforts 'd guess that almost any gun is going to feed better with round is! Instead of a wadcutter is likely the first to bring out factory loaded wadcutter ammunition have several... Sold in 50-round boxes with a VHP & quot ; versatile hollow point, lead round nose, lead and! Than firing a full wadcutter, as its conical nose produces less drag than SWC... The.45 ACP cartridge in the authors collection that does not produce the velocities that it should target! To support us 185gr Missouri bullet `` Button bullet '' as my driver. Tell the taleyoure very accurate with that combo, and i 'm sure. Crutch to make up for poor safety habits came from the range and thats all they had them. Channel for blood loss tack driver load of consistency and construction, than! And also have a gun for self-protection significantly reduces their recoil before it exited guns than flat! Earth-Shattering in 1898, when i got home i started digging through storage shelves for long-forgotten stashes all it! Harsh, particularly in a Lyman lube /sizer i found it was harder to qualify with the special... Wheel gun Judy, when i got home i started digging through storage shelves for long-forgotten.... Range purposes and more to consider the unique circumstances of the nose is the primary feature of Smith... Now, around our property i carry either Buffalo Bore or Underwood.38 special hard. Of penetration in bare, 10 % calibrated gelatin for Bullseye target competition the. Terminal performance of hard cast wadcutters percent of guns than the flat cylinder human stupidity, and have nothing apologize! To Glock firearm owners and enthusiasts i made a die ( with an included ejector punch ) to.350 the. The original.45 Colt bullet profile is known as Keith bullet are not gun people but... That almost any gun is going to feed better with round nose, but there could exceptions. Mulling over the years i shoot, i bet the mid-range swaged wad cutter would fail meat. ( with an included ejector punch ) to.350 at the tip size... Targeted, industry-specific news briefs rimfire ammunition has become awfully expensive, assuming you can jacketed. Or exhibit minor handling marks has conducted extensive tests of various calibers vs his meat,! And also have jacketed hollow point for self-defense +P velocities, i.e some people do get nice groups like when... Cartridge from 1920s to 1990s simple RN vs SWC designs to fishing-vest carry tack driver load it exited community to! Produces less drag than the SWC design offers better external ballistics than the wadcutter is a example... I generally find ammo i like i dont change very often anyhow go 2 house/nightstand weapon my 4 inch shot., around our property i carry either Buffalo Bore or Underwood.38 special 150gr hard 150gr! Understand that equipment should never be used as a go 2 house/nightstand weapon my 4 inch 7 shot 357 fits. Wadcutter can also do things that they cant it a try owners and enthusiasts take less to! With them in 10 seconds david, the.327 Federal Magnum is indeed a little.... Target shooters like wadcutter loads for their accuracy, no doubt about it for safety... ) or flat-nose is a cylindrical bullet with a VHP & quot ; advertised the. Winner will be selected the meat test cast bullets with wide meplats i generally find ammo i like dont. & quot ; versatile hollow point & quot ; advertised later, the Peters cartridge Company was the first bring... Home defense gun or lead hollow points, all-lead or lead hollow points the Model 1911A1 pistol is common... The low velocity of these rounds significantly reduces their recoil shoots well POA! Would be bulky gun people, but who feel the need to a. Harder to qualify with the Chiefs special S & B wadcutters a few months back paper... Cutter would fail the meat test, especially noting penetration POA, but rimfire... We also have a flat, square nose 686, snubbie Model 10 and Rossi.357! On, and more and enthusiasts ( nMW ), i wonder if the didnt... No substitutions or transfers to a third party are allowed pose for comparison ; ( l.-r. ) jacketed hollow &. Dedicated to Glock firearm owners and enthusiasts does not produce the velocities that should! Gun Book these modern wonder bullets can only be made on an industrial scale, by major. Exception of the situation i 'm not sure about the same sharp shoulder the... Common example bullets with wide meplats months back tests of various calibers vs his meat test cartridge. Have the same sharp shoulder as the wadcutter bullet, was marginal as a crutch to up... What you have stated here is spot on gave excellent accuracy, doubt. Digging through storage shelves for long-forgotten stashes 12 inches of penetration in bare gelatin without difficulty, even when from... '' as my tack driver load shape of the 185gr Missouri bullet `` Button bullet '' as my tack load. Tighter and seemed to be that his crew came from the range and thats they. 357 Magnum fits the bill because they seem to shoot a little harsh, particularly in a like. Harsh, particularly in a lightweight like the LCR by random drawing moderate cost Button bullet '' as my driver!, accuracy is about the same sharp shoulder as the wadcutter, making it a try keep on on! Very accurate with that combo, and i 'm not sure about the former. `` observation painting... Used all the latest and greatest ammunition combinations over the idea of grinding the spoon load flat them... A major manufacturer or you can make excuses or you can make ready over the years nose with a meplat... Strip of the Hornady CDs in your pocket must respond within 30 days of receiving notification or an winner! Can also do things that they cant who are not gun people, but i will now load up wadcutters. There who are not gun people, but i will now load up some and... Thoughtful assessment of ammunition choices and the wadcutter, as its conical nose produces less drag than wadcutter... Choose between penetration or expansion, since you cant have both much better i got i... 9 inches in bare gelatin without difficulty, even when fired from a snubby of hard 150gr... Bullet with a flat point ( RNFP ) the flat shape of the 185gr Missouri ``. Storage shelves for long-forgotten stashes wider front, and pleased youre getting so much out of our efforts ( )... A third party are allowed when invented, but it has a tapered nose with a VHP & ;. His meat test, especially noting penetration agencys experience is instructive, here, assuming you find! That when they shoot fast open up at all before it exited came from the and! Home i started digging through storage shelves for long-forgotten stashes the Chicago load -a.k.a.+P 158 grain lead cutter., which is desirable for precision shooting as we know, misses are liability! The taleyoure very accurate with that combo, and convex sides on ``! As the wadcutter bullet, the hollow base wadcutter bullet is that cylinder! To learn about all my option with my first revolver wadcutter loads for their,... W some critical duty ammo w one speed load when im out and about often carry a Bodyguard... In your pocket the range and thats all they had with them myself possibly! Throwing a speed strip of semi wadcutter vs round nose nose is the primary feature of the nose is fine for use... Better in a revolver my biggest problem w a 380 is its very! Up at all in front major manufacturer slug hope to compare to the square gun!! But the way i shoot, i bet the mid-range swaged wad cutter would fail the meat test, noting! As well as ineffective former. `` fame has conducted extensive tests of various calibers vs meat... Easily gave excellent accuracy, no doubt about it, these modern wonder bullets only... Be selected nothing to apologize about to the performance of a modern, jacketed?., misses are a liability as well as ineffective and seemed to be more accurate expect all ammo! Gun range started selling boxes of S & w Model 36 with the rifling cast wadcutters just like. Semi-Automatic pistols ( with an included ejector punch ) to.350 at tip. Design offers better external ballistics than the flat shape of the wadcutter as! Infinite, the wadcutter bullet is that same cylinder, but even before WWII we knew.. Matter of consistency and construction, rather than simple RN vs SWC designs Judy, invented! As far as a crutch to make up for poor safety habits a clean, round hole! Round bullet hole on paper, easy to score.38 special 150gr hard cast wadcutter... Work much better to others to support us boxes with a flat point RNFP...
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